Dragon Ball Z Uncensored

[Theldorrin]

The most significant achievement of the space age...
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[Derek Payne]

What about the moon landing?

[Action Hank]

Hubble is more important. Perhaps the most.


I was really enjoying the Disunion blog on the NY Times site, but now can't finish it since I'm not paying hundreds of dollars to get access to their paywall.

[Theldorrin]

All of the most important accomplishments in Space are Soviet.

First person, first satellite, first space station...

American accomplishments are just very good for publicity purposes, like Hubble or the moon landing.


Ace, you can easily bypass the NYT paywall, by my understanding.
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[Yogurtman]

I feel like TO DATE the American Civil War is more important to overall history than manned space flight. I mean, obviously if humanity continues to EXIST in the long term space flight will surpass it, but at this point space flight hasn't exactly changed people's lives on any level commensurate with "freeing millions of slaves" or "creating the most powerful nation in world history".

Also, to respond to Chris:

Regarding Grant, I wouldn't say it's accurate that he didn't care about his men. It's more that he shared a philosophy with Sherman that war is extremely terrible, but the way to make it better isn't to try and actually make the experience less awful, it's to make it as short as possible. Being willing to just slug it out ended the war. Look at it this way: George McClellan cared more about his men's lives than probably any other Civil War general, but the best thing he could have done for them was care a little less about their lives, because if he'd been willing to push on the Peninsula or at Antietam he would have won the war in 1862.

I can't argue with Lee being overconfident at Gettysburg, but it has to be looked at in the context of the ridiculous shit he had been pulling off nonstop for an entire year. Turning to fight at Antietam with like 25,000 men versus 100,000 plus, marching 2/3 of his army right in front of Hooker at Chancellorsville and just sort of hoping Hooker wouldn't notice...the guy had some of the most ridiculous watermelon sized balls of all time. But hubris is the traditional tragic flaw of the hero, right?

As for Longstreet being a better commander, it makes sense on paper, but it has to be viewed in the context of the fact that people in the South are crazy. Lee HAD to be aggressive, or he would have been removed. No one in the South had any patience for retreating, guerrilla warfare, or anything of that nature. Look at Joe Johnston in Georgia. He retreated, retreated, waiting for his chance, and Sherman had to be extremely paranoid at all times because he knew if he made any mistake Johnston would jump all over him. But then Johnston was removed for "refusing to fight", and they put in John Bell Hood who did exactly what Sherman wanted him to do, started a stand-up fight, and got twelve kinds of dog crap kicked out of his army.

Another factor to consider is that Lee's legendary gentility and politeness was actually extremely important, because Jefferson Davis was one of the touchiest a-holes in history. Davis had a terrible relationship with Beauregard, and Joe Johnston, and Bragg, and basically everyone who ever commanded an army for the Confederacy other than A.S. Johnston and Lee. I think most military geeks would agree that Phil Sheridan was the best general of the Civil War, but if had been a Southerner there is a 0% chance he could have commanded the Army of Northern Virginia better than Lee, because he would have insulted Davis or some governor and gotten sacked.

So, conceding that Lee handled Gettysburg poorly, I think he was probably the best commander for his army. To antagonize Seru and Theldorrin further and work sports into this post, Lee as head coach, Stonewall Jackson as offensive coordinator, and Longstreet as defensive coordinator is pretty much an ideal team!

[Yogurtman]

God damn I love the Civil War.

World War II is probably the best historical THING as far as the characters and drama involved, because of the scale and Hitler's unparalleled supervillain status, but the Civil War has to be #2. Lincoln somehow remaining calm and forgiving through unfathomable trials, Lee consciously basing his entire life on being like George Washington and almost perfectly succeeding...and it doesn't get any less entertaining as you go down the line to the more minor characters. Stonewall Jackson was a literally insane person who talked about nothing other than religion and war, lived on bread, milk, raspberries, and lemons, and refused to season this diet because pepper made his left leg ache. Dick Ewell had one leg and ate nothing but wheat! I mean, read that last sentence again, how is that not something I just made up?!?

[Theldorrin]

Are you trolling or are you a Matthew Outland that actually thinks some internal struggle in the US is more important to world history than manned space flight?
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[Yogurtman]

I said that manned space flight will ultimately be more important! I'm just saying that TO DATE manned space flight has not fundamentally changed the world. The Civil War did by basically creating the United States, and the United States has been fairly significant over the last century and a half.

Also, you can't dismiss the Civil War as a "U.S. thing" when manned space flight is just a "U.S. and Soviet Union thing". I mean, ooh, TWO countries are involved instead of just one.

[Yogurtman]

OK, that was probably a troll.

[Theldorrin]

It's not about how many countries are involved (which is many more than two, by the way).
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[Yogurtman]

I think I erred in taking this thread in a direction other than "dietary quirks of Civil War generals".

[Ryoko's Biatch]

The Civil War was also important because it was the beginning of modern warfare. Weaponry had reached a level where the traditional tactics up to that time were massively less effective because you could shoot a lot of bullets more quickly and accurately than ever before.

World War I can go suck a dick!

[Seru]

Way to go, humankind.

[MADali]

Fuck America.

[Mike Dunn]

Oh no he di'int!

[Ryoko's Biatch]

America is the best at everything!

[Seru]

Number one cocksuckers.

[Ryoko's Biatch]

America has never sucked a cock, but if it did, it would be the best at it.

[Derek Payne]

I'm American.

[Servbot]

*rimjob*